At 38 weeks pregnant I was ready. I officially started maternity leave, written about twenty blogs, made sure clients were going to be taken care of, set up the nursery and Eliana’s big girl room, gotten everything I needed for having a home birth and cleaned the entire house. Whew!
I know most moms, including myself, are anxious about their baby’s birth, since you’re “full term” at 37 weeks. Since my first daughter, Eliana came at 37 weeks and 5 days and I felt mentally unprepared, (since most first time moms deliver at 41 weeks 1 day on average) I wanted to make sure I was TOTALLY ready for when this baby decided to come.
My first “guess date” was November 1st, then got switched to November 11th in the first trimester because of how small baby girl was measuring. So, I was pretty convinced this baby was coming early. I was thinking she would come on Halloween when I would be a little over 38 weeks along. So, I was surprised when this baby came “late” at 40 weeks 3 days. And guess what? 40 weeks and 3 days is actually the average length of pregnancy for second time moms!  It figures I would go past my due date since I thought this baby would come early! I was super anxious waiting for baby, but everything turned out perfectly and she came at just the right time.
My mom had been taking Eliana a few days a week for a fun music and dance class up in Denver for the past several weeks. This was such a freaking blessing and I am SOOOOOOOOOO lucky. It gave Bill and I some time alone time to have some fun date nights, allowed me to spend some extra time in my business and with clients, and it gave me a personal break from chasing a two year old with a bum pelvis and just feeling pretty awful with the end of pregnancy pains. On my due date, my mom came and got Eliana for the last week of her music class in Denver. I was just PRAYING, (and manifesting, and hoping, wishing, positive thinking, voo-doo, etc.) that she would come that night so I would have a few days to adjust just the baby and I. But, little miss had other plans. Instead, Bill and I got one more nice date night at Costco in and I even worked in a coffee shop on some client emails and blogs the day things started progressing.

My last Belly picture!
Tuesday morning the 13th started totally normal. There was literally nothing else to “prepare” for at home, so I headed to a local coffee shop to do some work. I ended up seeing my chiropractor there for a meeting, so we laughed about how I was “still pregnant” and I told her I’d see her Thursday for my weekly adjustment. The next two things are what I believe started my birthing time. (Instead of labor, it’s called your Birthing Time in my Hypnobabies class- which sounds way more empowering if you ask me!) After working in the cafe, I headed home for lunch and proceeded to watch numerous episodes of Outlander while doing labor induction exercises on Youtube. So, there ya go. Outlander + labor exercises = BOOM, your birthing time begins. Here’s an example of my day on Instagram stories ha!

As you can see, my last update was me watching Outlander and doing labor induction exercises!
I went to the bathroom around 2 p.m. and noticed I had lost my sparkly cervix protector. (It’s actually called your mucus plug, but that sounds disgusting so I made up the other term.) When I had Eliana, it was a few days after I lost my sparkly cervix protector that she came, but I was happy that there was at least a SIGN of baby coming soon!
By about 3:00 p.m. I was having 20-30 second “pressure waves” or “birthing waves” (instead of calling them contractions) very frequently. I was stoked and feeling pretty sure this baby was coming by at least 9:00 p.m. with how fast things were progressing. I messaged my midwife team and doula, called the hubby and let immediate family and friends know that, “it was time!”
Then, nothing happened. For like 11 hours.
Not really anyway. I continued having pressure waves throughout the day. They usually stopped me from moving, so I knew they were “real” but they weren’t “painful”. I was kinda bored and disappointed. I know that sounds nuts, but I literally told Bill, “I’m bored. Things need to get going here if I’m going to have this baby by tonight.”
Fast forward to about 9:00 p.m.  My pressure waves were still really inconsistent, so I told everybody, don’t rush, I’m going to bed, this may be a false alarm. I proceeded to sleep through most of the other waves using my Hypnobabies tools and audio tracks. I can’t speak ENOUGH about how important this birthing class and hypnosis tools were to me to have an easy and comfortable labor. (You can learn more here.) You are basically in a deep, meditative state during your labor to stay calm and work with your body instead of against it. You are actually in a state of hypnosis a lot during the day. When you’re driving in the car, watching a movie. It’s similar to being  “zoned out”. The last few months of my pregnancy, Bill and I took a Hypnobabies childbirth class. It was an all encompassing class but focused on having a natural birth. It also teaches you techniques to stay calm and have an easier birth using hypnosis. I listened to many audio tracks, practiced daily birthing affirmations and visualizations, and Bill read scripts to me as well to practice relaxing. It was absolutely a GAME CHANGER. You can read more about my first birth experience here and why I chose to do things differently this time here.  My first birthing experience was not calm and peaceful at all. You can read it in my blog from two and a half years ago here.
This class helped address my fears around giving birth again and made me feel so confident and ready. I highly recommend this birthing class to EVERYONE, regardless or where you have your baby- hospital, birthing center, your house, your backyard, whatever!
So, around 2 a.m. I started keeping track of my pressure waves. They were consistently (finally) about ten minutes apart for an hour. Each time a wave came, I went into hypnosis and relaxed my entire body. But, I was still super disappointed. In my mind, I still had a LONG way to go if my waves were only ten minutes apart. The waves were feeling pretty strong, so I still  went upstairs from laying on the floor in the living room (don’t ask me why now I thought that was a comfortable place) and woke Bill up. I told him things were getting serious, call everyone to come. Literally after I said that to Bill, the pressure waves started coming every 2-3 minutes consistently. It was crazy going from ten minutes apart to two minutes! The most comfortable position for me was being on my hands and knees and leaning on a small bench in our bedroom. (I never imagined laboring right there, but I didn’t move until I was made to.) When the team of midwives and my doula arrived, I was in the transformation (or transition as it is typically called) stage. They did a great job of helping me stay in hypnosis, stay deeply relaxed and calm during typically the hardest part of your birthing time. Finally, Bill and the team convinced me to get into the birthing tub. It was nice and warm they said, but I was being super stubborn and didn’t want to move. For some reason, getting into the tub meant things were “getting real” in my mind and that baby was coming. I have no idea why I was resisting this...blame it on the hormones! So, after about 5-6 pressure waves and 10 minutes later I finally got into the birthing tub which was set up in the baby’s nursery just across the hall. I had flameless candles going and an essential oil diffuser with orange, Balance and peppermint going as well. My body got really uncontrollably shaky (- due to hormones like adrenaline) and I started getting really nauseous. This also happened with Eliana. My doula put the peppermint oil on a rag and helped me smell it every time I felt a wave of nausea. The Balance oil helped me feel more calm with my shaky body.
After going through a couple waves in the tub, my body was telling me it was time to start pushing. We all listened to a special “pushing baby out” audio track in the room and it was very relaxing and calming. The pushing is obviously the most intense part of the birthing time. Not going to lie, my I worked hard to stay as calm as possible. I relaxed my face, shoulders and hands as best I could.  My legs started getting really cramped up and tired and I started to just want to be done. But, Bill and the team did a great job at keeping me calm and reminding me to breath during the pushing. I pushed nice and slow this time...since last time I pushed so hard and fast I ended up having 40 stitches. Even though I pushed slower, I still only pushed for a total of 14 minutes. So, the “active” part of my birthing time was from 2 a.m.-4:37 a.m. Easy!
After a few good pushes, out came baby. Welcome to the world Emma Jacquelyn! As soon as baby came out, my doula helped me flip over and sit up to hold her. Bill and I snuggled baby as she wailed-and dang is she loud! Almost immediately after flipping over, I had a few more small pressure waves and delivered the placenta. The midwives put the placenta in a bucket and held it next to Emma. I didn’t really know this with my first, but there is still a lot of blood and nutrients being delivered to the baby for about an hour after birth from the placenta.  Read more about delyaed cord clamping here.
So, wherever baby went, the placenta followed her until we clamped and cut the cord about an hour or so later. It was really neat! Bill held Emma and rubbed in the vernix (the cheesy looking stuff) which she had a TON of. Instead of washing off the vernix immediately, its better to rub it into their skin! It’s super moisturizing and naturally an antimicrobial! Read more here.

It took me awhile to get motivated to get out of the tub as I was still feeling a lot of discomfort. Because...ya know, I just pushed a human being out of my vagina. But, finally, I got into our bed and nursed sweet baby Emma for the first time. She latched right away and we had a great first feeding. After feeding, Bill cut the cord and the midwives and my doula looked over my placenta. I think my little sister was only slightly weirded out. (Ha, love you sis!)  It was cool all the things they could tell by just looking at the placenta. They could tell my placenta was full term since there were some calcification and there was an amazing “tree of life” of veins and arteries on it. Read more on the placenta here.
Finally, it was time to check mom and baby out. I didn’t need any stitches this time and only had a few minor tears and “skid marks” as they called them. Baby was measured and weighed in at 7lbs 13 oz. and was 20 inches long! (Eliana left the hospital at 5 lbs 3 oz. and 19 inches long.) So Emma baby was almost 3 pounds bigger!
I then took a nice warm shower, changed my clothes and Bill and I snuggled in bed with our new little addition. (Both of our favorite parts of the homebirth was getting to just SLEEP in our own bed uninterrupted and not having to go anywhere!!) The midwives and our doula cleaned everything up and said their goodbyes. It was amazing to wake up the next day to a clean house!
Lastly, one of my favorite parts of the entire birthing experience was seeing Eliana meet baby Emma. My mom brought her down from Denver the next day. She looked at my tummy, then at Emma and exclaimed, “Hi, baby Emma!” She has been a great little helper and will be a great big sister. I’m so excited to watch them grow together!
Overall, I’m so happy with my birthing experience. It was empowering, beautiful and healing in so many ways. If you’re thinking about your next birthing experience, I highly recommend checking out Hypnobabies, having a doula, a midwife, and maybe even considering a home birth with a birthing tub! I can’t believe all of those words just came out in one sentence, and how different they are from my first birth experience, but I wouldn’t change it for the world!

​I began my Hypnobabies journey at 24 weeks pregnant, using the 6 week in person study with Madison, Hypnobabies instructor and my doula; I followed the course faithfully and transitioned to the maintenance schedule every day for the rest of my pregnancy (I was consistent with joyful pregnancy affirmations daily and on average missed one night a week of evening audio during my maintenance time but still made sure I didn’t miss any of the tracks). 

I experienced daily consistent practice waves beginning at 36 weeks.

My practice waves became a little stronger and more consistent two days before I gave birth. On Sunday, January 26th (40 w 2 d) I had a feeling I was going to give birth on Monday as I was feeling changes in the waves and like baby was continuing to drop. I spent the day with my mom and husband, light house cleaning, resting and working a puzzle that I had bought specifically for my birthing time, it was very relaxing. We listened to birthing day affirmations while working the puzzle. Before bed I did the Miles Circuit and played Yahtzee with my husband and mom. I woke up at 2:30 am with practice waves 5-8 min apart, they were different that what I had felt before so I knew my birthing day was beginning. I got up and used the bathroom and walked around the house for about 10 min. I laid back down and listened to your birthing time begins, I text my doula to keep her in the loop at 3:45 and listened to deepening your hypnosis which helped me fall back asleep for a bit. I told my husband around 5 am that it was going to be our birthing day and we cuddled for a bit. At 6 we got up and he made me eggs and toast. We slowly started to get ready the day and I stayed distracted picking up around the house and did a little laundry. Between 6:30 and 7 I started to lose more of my mucous plug/some bloody show and strength of the waves were building. By 7:30 my waves were become more consistent at 4 to 5 min apart, I was still moving around comfortably listening to birthing day affirmations and leaning on the counter and going into deeper hypnosis with my off switch for each wave and moving back into center. By 8 am I was consistent with waves at 4 min apart and at least one minute in length and had my doula head to the house. My waves were building quickly over the next 30 min and I was getting deeper and into my own space, less conversation between waves. By 8:30 I was feeling ready to go to the hospital, my doula arrived by 8:40 and agreed that it was not too early go. I listened to easy first stages in my headphones on the way to the hospital and my mom kept her hands on my shoulders to help me keep more relaxed during waves. I barely remember the drive to the hospital as I was deep into my own space at that point. We checked in and got back to triage at 9:30. I immediately went to the bathroom and started to vomit without warning, I continued to have Hypnobabies on in my ear buds. I remember My doula told me this was good vomiting was a sign transition was near. After getting cleaned up a nurse checked my progress, I had my headphones in and did not hear the conversation but I was 5 cm dilated. I was moved to L&D after the doctor came in. Bloody show was increasing and I started to get the shakes. I spent most of my time laying on my left side over the next two hours, my mom and my husband were rubbing on me and giving my counter pressures. My doula would hold my hand and coach me through waves. Deepening your hypnosis was playing in the background. I got up to use the bathroom and started to feel the urge to push, they checked and I still had a little lip. I chose to move into hands and knees position after this and found comfort on my knees with the head of the bed elevated and arms resting on the top of the bed. Pushing baby out track was amazing, I felt very in sync with the messages on this track. I was feeling aware enough to want to try to catch my baby, I reached down and felt him crowning which was amazing. As I continued to push I felt the sensation that I was going to tear, I expressed this fear to my doula and she coached me through allowing my body to stretch and helped me to keep my pushing tones low. I was able to relax well on the head of the bed between pushes and stay comfortable. The doctor ended up catching my baby as the sensation got very strong and she had to unwrap the cord. The relief of the baby and the fluids exiting my body was like nothing I had ever felt before. Turning around to meet my baby and have him on my chest was the most joy and comfort and I had ever experienced.

Between Hypnobabies, my Hypnobabies doula and the loving support of my husband and my mom I had a beautiful, amazing and comfortable birthing experience!! My birthing day was so positive and full of joy!

P.S my guess date based on US was 1/24, my guess date was 1/27, during my visualization track I often felt that it would snow on my babies birthday. He was born on 1/27 at 12:30 pm and it snowed later that evening :)

Leonidas Quinton Hakan Cooper was born on March 1st at 8:48 am! Guess date was March 13. My mom had told me recently I was born at 38 weeks. I was thinking March 20 would be a cool birth date but remembered babies “know when to be born” so luckily I had the essentials ready to go! He was born at 38 weeks, 2 days.

I had two softer stools and started feeling stuff out of nowhere (back pressure, waves) 11:57 PM Thursday, Feb 28th. Ironically I said often “hope he’ll wait until at least March”. He literally started the process right as March began.

Pretty much right away I was having pressure waves consistently and closer and closer from midnight to 6 AM. Then we got ready to go to Beginnings Birth Center. We got there 7 am - midwife Jen confirmed I was already fully dilated when we arrived! (For the 1 hr car ride, I definitely needed my hypnosis as it was uncomfortable!) While tub filled up, experienced waves in the shower with help of my husband Clinton and doula Jeanie. I got into tub and pushed 52 mins he was born 8:48 AM! I just had minor 2nd degree tears. I had option of laughing gas but chose not to use it since the hypnosis was effective at keeping me focused ! I used the birthing affirmations track when things started at midnight while I experienced waves in the tub at home and then the hypnosis music the whole rest of the time along with cues from my husband and doula . PEAAACCEE was my go to ​:)

​As I approached 40 weeks little man had made NO SIGN of being ready. He was still high up jamming into my ribs and I had not lost my mucus plug. I didn’t worry too much and was grateful my midwives don’t like to do cervical checks so I didn’t have any numbers in my head to discourage me (or give me a false sense of security!) Jolene encouraged me at my final checkup at 39 weeks to plan a fun date on our guess date so I didn’t think about the fact I was still pregnant! The hubs and I PLANNED to go to dinner and a movie and it never actually happened!
At 39+6 at 11:30pm I had a close friend text to check in and jokingly told me she’d love it if he came this weekend because she was in town. I told her not to get her hopes up because things hadn’t even come close to starting yet (what I didn’t know at the time was she felt the Lord tell her to be praying for me that night, and that’s what encouraged her to check in!) Right at midnight I felt a tiny voice tell me that I needed to put down my phone and go to sleep, so being 9 months pregnant and always tired I did just that. As I curled down to sleep I felt a fairly strong practice wave and when it finished little buddy danced a jig as if he knew today was his birthday! I had a few more practice waves and thought it was encouraging, but decided to go to sleep figuring if it was really the day my body would let me know! I slept two hours and just after 2 am woke up to a much stronger wave. I used the bathroom and timed a few and saw they were coming every 3 to 4 minutes so I let my husband Jon know I thought this could be it. I started listening to my tracks and tried getting a little more rest.
At 2:30 my waters broke and things picked up quickly in speed and intensity. Unfortunately since I was already in my active birthing time from almost the get go I wasn’t able to access my hypnosis quite the way I was hoping to, so the waves were pretty uncomfortable the whole time. Hubby started timing waves for me since I was already vocalizing through each wave and found them to be 2 minutes apart lasting almost a minute a piece! We called the midwife who said to keep timing them for twenty or thirty more minutes and to call her back. Our doula, Ariel, arrived about fifteen minutes later and saw that I was very close to transformation and called Jolene who agreed it was time to go.
At this point I was in the shower on hands and knees and as they got me out to get me dressed I remember saying “are you sure we aren’t going too early? We have HOURS to go!” And they both assured me it was better to be there too early than too late. We left for the birth center around 4:30.
When we got to the birth center Jolene was still filling the tub so she took my vitals where I had collapsed on the floor (I couldn’t stay standing during the waves anymore no matter how hard I tried) and after a few waves on the ground they got me into the still-filling tub. I found a position that helped and stayed there for about an hour vocalizing through each wave. Between waves Jon pushed fluids into me and read me the partner scripts and every ten to fifteen minutes Jolene checked the baby’s heartbeat and assured me he was very happy and doing well.
Finally Ariel suggested a change in position (which I wasn’t excited about) and I ended up laying in a semi reclined position in the tub holding onto hubby with one hand and Ariel with the other. The change in position was just what we needed for my body to be ready to push! I pushed for close to an hour (baby was average weight but had a BIG head). Jolene told me she was going to check baby’s progress with the next wave and found him about half an inch away from crowning. I was so shocked he was that close that I felt his head myself and couldn’t believe he was already almost here! It took a couple very uncomfortable waves to birth his head (95th percentile!). I had one more small gentle push and the rest of him was born at 7:53am, on his guess date which is both St Patty’s day as well as my Grandfather’s birthday who we named him after. I did have a couple second degree tears (which I’m convinced with how big his head was would have been third degree if I had used an epidural), but they healed quickly and well. While hypnobabies certainly didn’t make my birth pain free (I think it would have done a much better job on that front if my birth time had started slower!) it kept me relaxed between each wave (and according to Jolene and Ariel during each wave as well, but I definitely didn’t FEEL relaxed during the waves, ha!). I NEVER ONCE felt panicked, scared, or unsafe. From beginning to end all I felt was support and love from those around me and confidence that my body knew what it was doing, even though it had never done this before. I didn’t even remember nitrous oxide was available until five minutes after he was born! I had such a peaceful birth and such a positive experience that I get to treasure the rest of my life, and I do credit a lot of my mental state throughout the birth to my hypnobabies training, even if I never achieved hypnosis during the birth. Even right after he was born I thought to myself that I could totally do it again!

Valencia’s Birth Story I suppose I should start Valencia’s birth story at the beginning of my pregnancy. I had been taking ovulation tests for a couple months so that we could plan the perfect time to conceive. I was just finishing up school at Meredith Manor and didn’t want to experience morning sickness during school, so we timed it so that I would get pregnant right before school ended. Two days after I graduated, and on the day we arrived in Colorado we got the positive pregnancy test!

I scheduled an ultrasound at a local OBGYN when I was around 8 weeks. I told the doctor that I wanted a VBAC (vaginal birth after cesarean) and told her that my previous birth was an induction with epidural and that I didn’t progress past 4 cm, which led to a cesarean due to non reassuring fetal heart tones. She told me that we could try for a VBAC, but I likely wouldn’t progress again and would need another cesarean. I left the office that day and immediately knew I would not be going back.

I did a lot of research on birth and decided that I wanted to go with a midwife practice and that I would love a water birth (baths are my go to when I need me time)! The problem was that there were no local hospitals that offered water births and I wasn’t yet comfortable with the idea of a home birth. There was, however, a midwife practice almost two hours away that worked with a hospital that offered water birth. So after some discussion with Jon we decided that was the best option for us.

We found out around 14 weeks that our baby was a girl, and shortly after that we hired our doula! When looking online at one particular doua’s page I saw that she taught something called “Hypnobabies”. I did a bit of research and it sounded wonderful! I was a little bit skeptical at first, but I knew I did not want an epidural this time around and was looking for other comfort measures. Upon meeting with her I knew that we had to hire her. We took her 6 week Hypnobabies class and I’m not exaggerating when I say it was life changing. It helped me understand my previous birth so much better and made me very aware of the pros and cons to various interventions. After the course I practiced the “maintenance” Hypnobabies tracks and awaited my birthing time.

As my due date came and went my anxiety began creeping up. I was so fearful of an induction due to my last induction ending in a cesarean, so I listened often to the “Fear Clearing” track. On November 21st, I had pressure waves (Hypnobabies word for contractions) every 15-20 minutes, but tried not to get my hopes up as this had happened the previous day as well. I had also had my membranes stripped the evening before, so assumed it was just cramping due to that. That evening around 10pm, we went to bed and I listened to my hypnobabies tracks. They started getting closer together, so I got up and took a bath, since I knew if it wasn’t really my birthing time the pressure waves would stop in the bath. They didn’t though! They continued to get closer together until they were about 7-8 minutes apart. Since we were so far from the hospital I showered, straightened my hair, and woke up my husband around 12am. We got called the hospital and Madison, our doula, to tell them we were on our way. We got to the hospital at around 3am, and since the pressure waves were around 5-6 minutes apart, I thought that surely I was at least 4-5 cm. It turns out I was only 2cm, but since we lived so far away they let us stay at the hospital. From the classes I knew that the number meant nothing, but I still couldn’t help but be disappointed that I wasn’t progressed further. Since I was up all night we rested some while I listened to my tracks. The next few hours consisted of walking the halls with my husband so that I could use him for support every time a pressure wave came. Since I was using my deep hypnosis, they truly only felt like pressure, and I would even venture to say it was relaxing. Madison helped me use the peanut ball to rubbed the pressure points of my feet. Around 3:30pm I felt a small pop and felt some wetness, which we later realized was my water breaking. At that point I was around 4cm and 75% effaced. I got in and out of the bathtub a couple times, which was really relaxing as my pressure waves had gotten stronger.

At 7:20pm I began feeling very pushy, and so I was checked and I was 4-5cm and 100% effaced. My midwife told me that since I wasn’t dilated I had to resist the urge to push otherwise my cervix could swell. That is when the most difficult part of my birthing time began. The bathtub and hypnosis helped me not push, but it was so physically and emotionally exhausting fighting what my body so naturally wanted to do. At that point I was only vaguely aware of everyone’s presence in the room. I remember my midwife offering an epidural to help me not push, but in my mind an epidural meant cesarean and that made me slightly panic. The voice of my first OBGYN telling me that I likely wouldn’t progress again came creeping back into my mind, and I rebelliously fought it by using hypnosis to resist the pushing urge. At 8:35pm I was 6cm, so I figured we still had a long road ahead of us. At 9:07pm I could no longer resist the urge to push and was checked and was fully dilated with a small cervical lip! I got out of the tub due to my baby having decels. I had the “pushing baby out” track playing in the background. I pushed for two pressure waves while leaning over the back of the bed on my hands and knees. The midwife offered to hold back the cervical lip to get things going, so I agreed and moved to my back. Right after the midwife told me that we had to get her out quickly due to decels and suddenly the room became very loud. Everything was a blur and I felt almost delirious from the lack of sleep. I remember my hips hurting from nurses holding my legs back. The midwife said she would have to use forceps and do an episiotomy if I didn’t get her out soon, which terrified me, so I had to constantly push, even between pressure waves, which was suddenly painful, now that I could no longer focus on going into hypnosis. I remember the sound of my own screams scaring me, and Madison gently telling me to try making low tones instead, like we had learned in Hypnobabies. I tried, but couldn’t do it with all of the intense feelings. At 9:43pm I gave birth to a healthy baby girl, with a nuchal hand. Valencia weighed 8lbs 4 oz and was 21 ¾ long. After she was born they placed her on my chest and she started nursing within a few minutes. I was overcome with so many feelings! A huge adoration and love for her, a sense of triumph that I did have a natural, vaginal birth, and strangely enough, a feeling of loss over the peaceful waterbirth that I had envisioned. As I cuddled my beautiful daughter on my chest, I realized even though I just went through the most intense day of my life, I couldn’t wait to try again for my peaceful birth.

​I’ve had to do a lot of processing, which is why I’ve just now written her birth story over a year later. I can say without a doubt, that if it hadn’t been for my doula, Madison, and my hypnobabies classes, I definitely would not have been so calm and peaceful for the majority of my birthing time. Even though there are definitely some things I would do differently with the knowledge I have now, this still brought me my daughter, therefore, to me it was still a beautiful, unforgettable experience.